Mate I see your point and it refreshing to debate with someone who can put his thoughts into words as well as yourself. I just have to ask one question though... what came first, the chicken or the egg? The gun saved x amount of people that day but without the criminal's gun, would the samaritan's gun be needed?
Oh Bondi.. looks like we're the only two here that share our opinion... which suprises me and scares me a little... haha.
I guess I just don't see the appeal in owning a gun for protection. I would never want to be responsible for injuring or killing a person, not even in the name of self-defense (Yes I'm as close to a "tree-hugging" whatever you call it... but for the record I've never hugged a tree).
I know that people will always have guns, but I'm possitive that if they were illegal or much harder to get, you wouldn't have your white suburban house kids shooting each other with daddy's guns or killing each other with the gun they paid their friend to get... The fact that guns would be harder to find would discourage some people.
So if you really want a gun then you should have to go through a hell of a lot to get one. If you're not willing to do that.. then you must not want it that bad.
It's relatively easy to see merit in both sides of this debate. One the one hand, nobody wants to get shot by some nut who got ahold of a gun. On the other hand, nobody, (except evidently Baby) would want to be robbed, raped or killed and have no way to adequately protect themselves. I guess the question is; who is ultimately responsible for protecting your (and your families) life. You, or a stranger (cop, bystander, etc). I believe each citizen has a right to protect themselves. And with that right comes responsibility. The government doesn't "give" you the right to protect yourself, it's something you are born with as a citizen of the United States. (inalienable rights). Although you may pay for that protection thru taxes, it's a simple fact of life that the cops can't be there every time someone needs that protection. Then there are Second Amendment issues. The Founding Fathers were well aware of what governments were capable of. Disarming the citizenry was looked upon as taking away a citizens ability to stand up to a hostile government.
Oh Bondi.. looks like we're the only two here that share our opinion... which suprises me and scares me a little... haha.
I guess I just don't see the appeal in owning a gun for protection. I would never want to be responsible for injuring or killing a person, not even in the name of self-defense (Yes I'm as close to a "tree-hugging" whatever you call it... but for the record I've never hugged a tree).
I know that people will always have guns, but I'm possitive that if they were illegal or much harder to get, you wouldn't have your white suburban house kids shooting each other with daddy's guns or killing each other with the gun they paid their friend to get... The fact that guns would be harder to find would discourage some people.
So if you really want a gun then you should have to go through a hell of a lot to get one. If you're not willing to do that.. then you must not want it that bad.
Baby I never thought there would be anyone who would agree on my stance with this issue, just because of the differences in our socities. Australia was never bought up on guns, my dad never owned one, neither did his father, or his father. yet the same can not be said for people inside the USA who hold on to their ancient constitutional right like it has any relevance or any merit in today's society. They feel like if you take their right to own a gun you take away all democratic freedom and it is something that will take a lifetime to being to change.
QUOTE(closeup)
It's relatively easy to see merit in both sides of this debate. One the one hand, nobody wants to get shot by some nut who got ahold of a gun. On the other hand, nobody, (except evidently Baby) would want to be robbed, raped or killed and have no way to adequately protect themselves. I guess the question is; who is ultimately responsible for protecting your (and your families) life. You, or a stranger (cop, bystander, etc). I believe each citizen has a right to protect themselves. And with that right comes responsibility. The government doesn't "give" you the right to protect yourself, it's something you are born with as a citizen of the United States. (inalienable rights). Although you may pay for that protection thru taxes, it's a simple fact of life that the cops can't be there every time someone needs that protection. Then there are Second Amendment issues. The Founding Fathers were well aware of what governments were capable of. Disarming the citizenry was looked upon as taking away a citizens ability to stand up to a hostile government.
I'll keep stating it. I don't own a gun and I live in a city whilst it seems lovely and blue and dandy on tv commercials has an underground scene. I have never been shot and I have never though (shit I wish I had a gun right now)
Maybe that is the general difference here, the countries and societies we live in
Baby I never thought there would be anyone who would agree on my stance with this issue, just because of the differences in our socities. Australia was never bought up on guns, my dad never owned one, neither did his father, or his father. yet the same can not be said for people inside the USA who hold on to their ancient constitutional right like it has any relevance or any merit in today's society. They feel like if you take their right to own a gun you take away all democratic freedom and it is something that will take a lifetime to being to change.
I'll keep stating it. I don't own a gun and I live in a city whilst it seems lovely and blue and dandy on tv commercials has an underground scene. I have never been shot and I have never though (shit I wish I had a gun right now)
Maybe that is the general difference here, the countries and societies we live in
Here's another way to think of it: You don't wear a motorcycle helmet everytime you ride because you're gonna fall off everytime you ride. You don't wear a life vest everytime in a canoe because you think you're gonna capsize everytime you go out. But the ONE time you need it, it's only gonna be there because you use it EVERYTIME. The one time you may need a gun, and don't have one, could very well be one time too many. Why bother wearing a helmet if you don't plan on crashing that day? Why wear a seat belt if you've never been in a fatal crash and have no intention of getting in one today? It's not a fatalistic attitude to want to protect yourself, it's a realistic attitude. Nobody leaves the house in the morning thinking they're going to be the victim of a robbery, rape, or stabbing. But, the fact is, it happens.
Here's another way to think of it: You don't wear a motorcycle helmet everytime you ride because you're gonna fall off everytime you ride. You don't wear a life vest everytime in a canoe because you think you're gonna capsize everytime you go out. But the ONE time you need it, it's only gonna be there because you use it EVERYTIME. The one time you may need a gun, and don't have one, could very well be one time too many. Why bother wearing a helmet if you don't plan on crashing that day? Why wear a seat belt if you've never been in a fatal crash and have no intention of getting in one today? It's not a fatalistic attitude to want to protect yourself, it's a realistic attitude. Nobody leaves the house in the morning thinking they're going to be the victim of a robbery, rape, or stabbing. But, the fact is, it happens.
I see your point but I will never agree I'm afraid. Guns aren't for me.
Can I ask you something? DO you carry a handgun everywhere you go?
If you ask me that is a fucking paranoid existence. I'd rather not live
I see your point but I will never agree I'm afraid. Guns aren't for me.
Can I ask you something? DO you carry a handgun everywhere you go?
If you ask me that is a fucking paranoid existence. I'd rather not live
No, I don't carry all the time. But I do have a concealed weapons permit. I'm armed when I'm carrying a lot of cash, or in a bad neighborhood, or whenever I think I might want the protection of a handgun. I'm not a gun nut, by any means. I've been trained by the Marines in the lawful use of deadly force.I've also taught Air Force officers and personal how to shoot both handguns and rifles. I ran the armory in a reserve unit in the Army. Not to toot my own horn, but I've been honorably discharged from the Marines, the Army and the Air Force.In all three branches of service, I've been involved with weapons. In the Marines, one of my duties was to guard the payroll. I would carry a satchel with $25,000-$35,000 dollars across the base where 2500 Marines had M-16 weapons in their possession. The base I was stationed on was where the "first response" of Marines would originate from if anything happened in the world that required an immediate response. These Marines DID NOT keep their weapons at the armory. When I was a Corporal, one of my duties was to guard the payroll after it got dropped at the base but before it got loaded onto a naval ship. I remember sitting all night with a weapon locked and loaded on five safes that contained $250,000 cash. Again, the base where every Marine had an automatic weapon with them. I guess my point is I've been in situations where being armed was not only a good idea but absolutely necessary. It would upset me tremendously to shoot another human being. But, and this is the key, it would upset me even more to get attacked and have no way to defend myself. When it comes to deadly force, having a second chance is not an option. I value my life to the extent that I don't want some crack-head who wants to steal my $50.00 sneakers for his next hit to be the one who decides whether or not I live or die. I know it's hard to understand why someone might be pro- gun ,but it's more a matter of being ready if the ultimate bad luck chooses you as it's next victim. I'd hate to miscalulate even once.
Discourage People?
Prisons Can't stop Prisoners from getting Drugs or Killing each other in Prisons
If you thought for about two seconds about what I wrote, then maybe you'd realize that the whole process of getting a gun would discourage people. If they were at least somewhat more difficult to obtain, it would take the "appeal" out of it and someone who was going to committ a crime of passion wouldn't be as capable in most circumstances.
QUOTE(closeup)
It's relatively easy to see merit in both sides of this debate. One the one hand, nobody wants to get shot by some nut who got ahold of a gun. On the other hand, nobody, (except evidently Baby) would want to be robbed, raped or killed and have no way to adequately protect themselves. I guess the question is; who is ultimately responsible for protecting your (and your families) life. You, or a stranger (cop, bystander, etc). I believe each citizen has a right to protect themselves. And with that right comes responsibility. The government doesn't "give" you the right to protect yourself, it's something you are born with as a citizen of the United States. (inalienable rights). Although you may pay for that protection thru taxes, it's a simple fact of life that the cops can't be there every time someone needs that protection. Then there are Second Amendment issues. The Founding Fathers were well aware of what governments were capable of. Disarming the citizenry was looked upon as taking away a citizens ability to stand up to a hostile government.
Yes, since I so said that I wanted to get robbed, raped or killed. There are other methods of self defence other than carrying a gun around that would be just as effective and less harmful. I feel more threatened by paranoid people such as yourself than anything else. I honestly doubt that you will ever run across an instance where you will need your gun. If you do I doubt that you'll be carrying it and have access to it in time to make any difference.
That's not really my point though.. my point, like Bondi's is that guns just aren't for me. My other point is that if you value your right to own a gun so much, then you should go through all the training, and background checks, and yearly checkups the government can handle to inforce. (sounds like you shouldn't have a problem with this since you've apparently already had training). I really don't see what the big deal is.
Baby I never thought there would be anyone who would agree on my stance with this issue, just because of the differences in our socities. Australia was never bought up on guns, my dad never owned one, neither did his father, or his father. yet the same can not be said for people inside the USA who hold on to their ancient constitutional right like it has any relevance or any merit in today's society. They feel like if you take their right to own a gun you take away all democratic freedom and it is something that will take a lifetime to being to change.
I'll keep stating it. I don't own a gun and I live in a city whilst it seems lovely and blue and dandy on tv commercials has an underground scene. I have never been shot and I have never though (shit I wish I had a gun right now)
Maybe that is the general difference here, the countries and societies we live in
It always suprises me just how many people out here own guns/ are fanatical about their "rights." I've grown up in a family without guns and been around families without guns. My mother has even been politcally active in trying to get stricter gun laws. I just can't imagine seeing one or wanting to use one, let alone to hurt someone. I guess if you really feel the need to have one... that's your choice in this country, I just think the majority of people don't need to or deserve to carry.
I suppose I need to pack my bags and head to Australia! Sound good??
No, I don't carry all the time. But I do have a concealed weapons permit. I'm armed when I'm carrying a lot of cash, or in a bad neighborhood, or whenever I think I might want the protection of a handgun. I'm not a gun nut, by any means. I've been trained by the Marines in the lawful use of deadly force.I've also taught Air Force officers and personal how to shoot both handguns and rifles. I ran the armory in a reserve unit in the Army. Not to toot my own horn, but I've been honorably discharged from the Marines, the Army and the Air Force.In all three branches of service, I've been involved with weapons. In the Marines, one of my duties was to guard the payroll. I would carry a satchel with $25,000-$35,000 dollars across the base where 2500 Marines had M-16 weapons in their possession. The base I was stationed on was where the "first response" of Marines would originate from if anything happened in the world that required an immediate response. These Marines DID NOT keep their weapons at the armory. When I was a Corporal, one of my duties was to guard the payroll after it got dropped at the base but before it got loaded onto a naval ship. I remember sitting all night with a weapon locked and loaded on five safes that contained $250,000 cash. Again, the base where every Marine had an automatic weapon with them. I guess my point is I've been in situations where being armed was not only a good idea but absolutely necessary. It would upset me tremendously to shoot another human being. But, and this is the key, it would upset me even more to get attacked and have no way to defend myself. When it comes to deadly force, having a second chance is not an option. I value my life to the extent that I don't want some crack-head who wants to steal my $50.00 sneakers for his next hit to be the one who decides whether or not I live or die. I know it's hard to understand why someone might be pro- gun ,but it's more a matter of being ready if the ultimate bad luck chooses you as it's next victim. I'd hate to miscalulate even once.
Well then that goes against your very argument. Do you carry it to church? Do you carry it when you have $2 in your pocket and you are just quickly going to the store to get some milk?
You said you never know when you're going to need it so I presumed it went everywhere with you? Know that I know it doesn't it makes your argument hold less sway.
You are obviously not the type of person I am talking about and I am sure you know that. You seem not only qualified but mentally stable enough to own a gun and hold enough common judgement of when and if to use it. I just don't like the idea of some dude sitting next to me having a coffee is carrying something that could kill me because I accidentaly glanced the wrong way
QUOTE(baby21)
It always suprises me just how many people out here own guns/ are fanatical about their "rights." I've grown up in a family without guns and been around families without guns. My mother has even been politcally active in trying to get stricter gun laws. I just can't imagine seeing one or wanting to use one, let alone to hurt someone. I guess if you really feel the need to have one... that's your choice in this country, I just think the majority of people don't need to or deserve to carry.
I suppose I need to pack my bags and head to Australia! Sound good??
You're damn right you do honey!
Owning a gun in the USA looks as much like having a baby. Everyone is able to do it but maybe the bloody well shouldn't.
Owning a gun (and having a child) should be a privilage not a right
If you thought for about two seconds about what I wrote, then maybe you'd realize that the whole process of getting a gun would discourage people. If they were at least somewhat more difficult to obtain, it would take the "appeal" out of it and someone who was going to committ a crime of passion wouldn't be as capable in most circumstances.
Yes, since I so said that I wanted to get robbed, raped or killed. There are other methods of self defence other than carrying a gun around that would be just as effective and less harmful. I feel more threatened by paranoid people such as yourself than anything else. I honestly doubt that you will ever run across an instance where you will need your gun. If you do I doubt that you'll be carrying it and have access to it in time to make any difference.
That's not really my point though.. my point, like Bondi's is that guns just aren't for me. My other point is that if you value your right to own a gun so much, then you should go through all the training, and background checks, and yearly checkups the government can handle to inforce. (sounds like you shouldn't have a problem with this since you've apparently already had training). I really don't see what the big deal is.
lol, do you even watch the News or History Channel?
Discourage? you can't even discourage teens from having sex!
You can't discourage people from doing or making Drugs!
You can't discourage the Middle East from Killing Each Other or the rest of the Free World!
Its not about Discourage, its about Teaching Everyone Right from Wrong!
And why would you be THREATENED by an Armed American with the CCW?
Do you feel Threatened by Armed Polices? If only 4 person with a CCW on the planes of 9/11, would have save thousands of lives that day! If only 2 person with a CCW at Va Tech would have save 32 lives!
Are you also THREATENED by Armed Jesus? Is Jesus Paranoid? Or just you?
Guns save lives
Jesus Saves
Prove me wrong but showing me how many lives guns save rather than end? Please I beg of you.
In 2005.... over 10,000 people dies from homocide alone inside the USA. Show me where guns have saved 10,000 lives and I will eat humble pie. (and I mean at a civilian level, not law enforcement or military)
QUOTE(closeup)
Well, where to start? First off, I can think of many instances where being armed is better than not. I might be driving a moving van into an area that is a high crime area. The truck I'm driving contains literally every single thing a family owns, except maybe a suitcase and the clothes on their backs. If someone were to rob me and get the keys to my truck, that family would lose everything. Insurance would cover MY loss, but not theirs. I do antique shows around the country. There are times when they're are items in the truck worth many, many thousands of dollars. (I need to carry two million dollars of insurance just to be eligible to carry these loads.) Do you think a crook wouldn't love to steal a truck with a that kind of pay-off? There are times when I have to report to the local police station and get an escort into the place where I'm unloading. I need to show them my weapon and carry permit so everyone knows that I'm armed.
And, Bondi is right. I don't always have a weapon on hand. I don't carry when I'm jogging or shooting hoops or just going to the beach or grocery store. America is safe in the sense that people don't need to walk around paranoid, but that is beside the point. I have a responsibility to myself to try never to be a victim of a random crime. It is not my intention to try to persuade others to act as I do. I'd be happy if there were less guns and more restrictive availability. There should be background checks and mandatory training. But, for the government( which, in reality, is just someone bureaucrat) to say that I don't have the right to protect myself, that's where I draw the line. They're not up to the task of protecting every citizen. How many times have you ever heard of a cop PREVENTING a rape or robbery? They always show up on the scene AFTER the damage is done. And, how much comfort is it to the victim's family to hear such platitudes as, " We'll do every thing we can to find the guy" or "We're sorry, we're doing all we can." And, I'm not knocking the cops, they're in an impossible position. It's simply not possible for them to prevent crime. They respond after the crime has been committed. I think that most people who feel "safe", are delusional to a certain extant. They seem to go around with the mindset of "It can't happen to me". But, it can and it does. I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind about guns or gun laws, but not everyone is in the same boat.
Mate I can understand your want and need to carry a gun in your line of work and if you feel as though you need to do so during other parts of your life that is fine. Personally I think it is paranoid but we each have our own opinions.
What isn't helping your case is the militant gun not above me sprouting all sorts of bullshit propaganda believed only by people of his ilk
That was an interesting article, thanks for taking the time to post it. Here's another interesting point: Have you ever noticed when these nutcases go on their rampages, it's almost always a school or mall or church? In other words, where people are unlikely to be armed. You never see them shoot up a police station or an army post. Why? Because they know they are likely to get shot before they can kill anyone.
To answer Skull's question, I carry a military-issue Colt .45.
Well then that goes against your very argument. Do you carry it to church? Do you carry it when you have $2 in your pocket and you are just quickly going to the store to get some milk?
You said you never know when you're going to need it so I presumed it went everywhere with you? Know that I know it doesn't it makes your argument hold less sway.
You are obviously not the type of person I am talking about and I am sure you know that. You seem not only qualified but mentally stable enough to own a gun and hold enough common judgement of when and if to use it. I just don't like the idea of some dude sitting next to me having a coffee is carrying something that could kill me because I accidentaly glanced the wrong way
You're damn right you do honey!
Owning a gun in the USA looks as much like having a baby. Everyone is able to do it but maybe the bloody well shouldn't.
Owning a gun (and having a child) should be a privilage not a right
I couldn't have said it better... I feel that the world would be a whole lot better with less children and less guns!! Oh well...
I don't really think this conversation is getting anywhere, but I suppose it's refreshing to hear the other side argued out. I will choose to respectfully disagree with you guys. I just hope you realize that there are people out there that feel safe without guns, and I don't believe that a live in a dilusional state. I just choose to be happy with my life and every minute of it so if and when something does happen to me I'm ready, whether that's a hundred years from now from old age or tomorrow from some serial killer...
I guess we just live life differently and hold some different views! I'm glad your gun offers you the protection and safety you feel it does, and out of all of this it is refreshing to see a responsible level headed gun owner.
